Rumours about Andrew Horton true?

Rumours about Andrew Horton true?

Beitragvon Uschi » So Aug 14, 2005 10:46 pm

For days now there have been rumours going around that Andrew Horton hasn't returned the official Saga URL http://www.saga-world.com/ to the official management in spite of Horton not only acknowledging that he is not longer officially working for Saga but claiming at the same time that he is supporting Saga equally well as Saga Germany:

Nightcrawler alias Andrew Horton hat geschrieben: No, I am not affiliated with Saga's official site. Saga's management team runs their website, I run mine. It's like Saga-GER... we are both here to support and back up the official site. THE BIG 3, we all have a role online and we're doing it well. :D


Posted on the 08-10-2005, 07:40 PM as message #4 with the link: http://www.imagesandwords.com/forums/sh ... 0c9&t=7339



Unfortunately, as he holds the official URL, that means all Saga related links point to his page (just click on the above link and see what I mean). Saga fans who search with google or yahoo will always be directed to the above shown URL. Hundreds of reviews carry this URL as a source of information about Saga. In doing so Andrew Horton denies Saga an effective tool to promote themselves and make information available which is of interest to their fans.

Surely Andrew Horton wouldn't withhold the band's property from them! What possible good would it do for him? There must be a misunderstanding, right?
Zuletzt geändert von Uschi am Mo Aug 15, 2005 11:56 am, insgesamt 1-mal geändert.
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Beitragvon Trudes Oude Voshaar » So Aug 14, 2005 11:07 pm

Hi Uschi,

I also think this must be a misunderstanding. What other explanation could there possible be?
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Beitragvon FlyerPR » Mo Aug 15, 2005 6:50 am

i other words, you are saying that Andy H has the control of most saga content in the internet?
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Beitragvon Uschi » Mo Aug 15, 2005 11:19 am

Indirectly yes. If a Saga fan googles Saga the search engine shows Andrew Horton's page as the official page. Since google is usually a reliable source of information, why would the unsuspecting Saga fan search further for the official page, particulary because the link to the official page on Andrew Horton's page is misleading. Only if a Saga fan scrolls down, reading all the news he will see that he is not on the official page.

Now just assume that someone is looking for the official Saga forum, why should this person scroll down and look for a link to the official forum when the supposedly correct link presents itself right in front of him. Do you study always everything on a page? I don't, I usually stop when I think I found what I was looking for.

What's more, the URL was handed over by the previous webmaster of Saga for the purpose of running the official site and not for the private use by Andrew Horton. Then this is exactly what he's doing right now: using it privately. As praiseworthy as it might be of him to support Saga further, in spite of having been sacked by the band, that is exactly what it is, a private initiative, no more, no less.

Eddy Oude Voshaar hat geschrieben:Hi Uschi,

I also think this must be a misunderstanding. What other explanation could there possible be?


Especially if one takes into account that he is Mr Sadler's webmaster. What light does this shed on his attitude to his current job?
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Beitragvon Uschi » Mo Aug 15, 2005 4:08 pm

Inbetween I have been reliably informed that Andrew Horton made a statement on his forum about those rumours:

Nightcrawler hat geschrieben: Let's put some "rumours" to rest. I own SAGA-WORLD.com
domain and the band knows what I am doing with it. I have met and discussed
these issues with the current management team and they all are OK with what
direction I plan to take SAGA-WORLD.com in. The band is not losing anything
by having me run this website, like an individual would have you believe.

I have worked very hard for SAGA over the past few years and plan to
revitalize SAGA-WORLD.com in the near future. I know some people might not
like the way I operate but most appreciate the work I have put in for this
band and I will continue to do so with or without a few naysayers
support.


Posted on 14.8.2005 as post #1 in the thread “SAGA-WORLD.com” with the link:

http://www.imagesandwords.com/forums/sh ... post109553

That Andrew Horton owns SAGA-WORLD.com legally is in so far true as he registered the domain on his own name when it was handed over to him by Patrick Eggen, Andrew Horton's predecessor, in good faith that he would only use it in his function as official webmaster. Albeit this doesn't justify this ownership morally. The URL has to be registered on 'someone's name. It seems logically to a certain degree that this should be the webmaster as he is representing the band on the web and deals with all things involved. He was considered trustworthy enough to be bestowed with this task. By emphasizing the legal ownership of this URL Andrew Horton betrays this trust.

Regarding Andrew Horton's claim that 'band is not losing anything' it must be allowed to asked what he possibly is offering to the band and fans that would justify leaving fans with the impression they were in fact viewing the official site when they are not, registering with the official forum, when in fact they are not (and possible losing out on the opportunities like to communicate with band members).

And it still doesn't answer the question what Andrew Horton possibly could gain from keeping the URL. As every link marks this URL as the link to the official page it brings up the suspicion of false pretence, as this link is only of value as long as it is considered official. The question that follows from there is, does Andrew Horton wants to impose his service on the band as he deems them fit?

Before Andrew Horton has any moral rights on the URL there is also Partick Eggen to consider who is the original owner of the URL and who acted in the interests of Saga, and Saga alone, and therefore has the older rights on this URL.
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Beitragvon FlyerPR » Di Aug 16, 2005 1:04 am

looks to me as an ethical problem here. Does the URL belongs to AH? yes
Should it belong to AH due to the circunstances that made him have it in first place? i think it belongs to Saga . Is Saga allowing AH to have it ? that seems to be AH claim, that they chose him and therefore he doesnt have to give the url to anyone else...
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Beitragvon Uschi » Di Aug 16, 2005 8:56 am

You summed it up nicely 8) Andrew Horton's argumentation is flawed though, if someone get's a company car, then this is in the function of him being employed and he will have to return the car to the company when circumstances of the job are changing.

Just a band is no company, so not everything is made with pen and paper, trust and teamwork are traits of this kind of business. But this is not the first time in history that a band loses out because someone takes advantage of the trust shown and it won't be the last.

It also seems that Andrew Horton lacks the courage to comment on the rumours in this forum and will not even allow the thread, which he started, to remain in his own forum. He also makes an awful lot of false assumptions which I will not comment on as this is not relevant to the topic of this thread:

Darn right Leo! Since this issue has been brought up elsewhere I will
comment on this for the last time. A personal vendetta has been placed
against me and I'm sure it will never stop. Some people need to worry more
about themselves and the problems WITHIN their OWN lives and stop sticking
their nose where it doesn't belong - for SAGA's sake... stop this madness
and take your medication! It really is not looking good on you when the
band/management are fine with my plans. So, are you saying SAGA is wrong? If
it makes you feel better I will make some improvements to the issues you
raised, but I'm sure you'll still find something to complain about. Nothing
I can do will ever be right for either of you. Nowhere on my forum does it
say it's official, it is a nice alternative though for some people who don't
want to go elsewhere.

Have a nice day!

This thread will self destruct in 00:00:07.


Post #3 with the link:
http://www.imagesandwords.com/forums/sh ... post109569

Andrew Horton claims that the band agrees to his plans. I have to say that I heard otherwise from several knowledgeable sources (please note the plural). I have difficulty believing Andrew Horton's claims as he tends not to stick to the facts when it suits his purpose. An example can be found in a thread where he claimed to have met Silent Knight. Andrew Horton eventually admitted that he had been exaggerating, explaining that My lie was for the benefit of the euros, and John who may have thought he actually talked to me.

Given that there is such good understanding between Andrew Horton, the band and the management it should not pose a problem for him to get a statement from the band or management that confirms his claims and clears up that particular matter once and for all.

On the really positive side, it is good to note that some changes will be made to improve what occasionally comes across as misleading. Hopefully these changes will be more than cosmetic surgery and will clearly distinguish between the official site / forum and Andrew Horton's private effort. Yet the main points of criticism remain:
The URL will still be perceived as the official one, the attempt to correct this will add to the workload of the band / managers and in the meantime the official page will not have reached it's full potential as promotion tool. Andrew Horton is fully aware of this and as webmaster he will know how Google and Yahoo work. If he is concerned about the well-being of Saga then why not simply return this URL to the former owner or to Saga?

There is also the question remaining of what benefits and services he can offer that would justify the disadvantages that his decision to retain the URL imposes on fans and band? Questions that Andrew Horton has yet to clarify.
Only one thing is clear at the moment and that is that the rumours are correct in speculating that Andrew Horton has no intention of returning the URL.
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Beitragvon Uschi » Di Aug 16, 2005 1:42 pm

Since Andrew Horton (alias Peach, alias Nightcrawler) chose to call on Susi in post #12 in thread http://www.imagesandwords.com/forums/sh ... post109517 which he hasn't deleted (yet?) I'd like to make something plain.

Neither before I started posting about the rumours , nor afterwards have I been in touch with Susi regarding this matter. I laid out my intentions right from the beginning, I wanted to clearify some rumours which I succeeded in. Susi's loyalties have always been with Saga and she wouldn't betray them by 'gossiping'. She also wouldn't make the spy for me.

Andrew Horton's stance is quite clear now, though some of his claims are still lacking the proof.

In post #7 he writes:

Maybe if I re-direct my URL to sagaontour they will
shut up, but I'm sure they will still find something else to complain about
when they see a link to my site on sagaontour. There is nothing I can do right
with these people.


On the contrary, when Andrew Horton returns the URL, many people will find this very satisfactory. I'm sure the very same people would be meanwhile also pleased to accept Andrew Hortons kind offer to re-direct the URL to the official page, until the legal formalities have been sorted.

I, for my part, am satisfied with the outcome as I cleared a few rumours and shed some light on Andrew Horton's attitude who will be also in future measured by his actions and not by his all to many words.

I hope that reading this thread was just as enjoyable as contributing to it. Many thanks to you guys who had the guts to reply here. Free discussion and asking questions has become a very rare business in the Saga fan community. Food for thought.
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Beitragvon Trudes Oude Voshaar » Di Aug 16, 2005 8:12 pm

well done Uschi!!!
You have my greatest respect. :)
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Beitragvon Birdy » Mi Aug 17, 2005 3:48 pm

I just "googled" Saga and was linked to a new site where you can decide where to go.I think that's ok. So now everybody finds the official site very easily.

I can live with that and don't want to know what happens with "URL- rights " in the background,cause it's not my buisness. ;)
Life is too short for worries!
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Beitragvon Uschi » Fr Aug 19, 2005 9:44 pm

Andrew Horton started a thread in his forum titled An Apology: http://www.imagesandwords.com/forums/sh ... php?t=7366


Post #1 says:

An Apology

I want to apologize for my behaviour recently and in the past. I have no
issues with people from Europe as I've been told some people think I do
because at this site we often use the term "euros" but we don't mean it in a
derogatory manner. I would like to see the Saga fan community at peace and
it all starts with one person. I can try and change the hearts and minds but
it is others who have to want peace and friendship too.

Here how about I make it more personal.

I want to aplogize to: Uschi S., John G., Eddy O-V, Susi, Mikkel, Leo Cameo,
KennyG, Birdy, Flying Girl, Jeffrey D, Lars B, and any others I may have
overlooked.

I swear on the Holy Bible my apology is completely sincere and from the
heart. I would never swear on the Bible for anything unless it was true.

It all starts with 1.... now where do we go from here.

Peace.


And the posting #2 reads:

Please pass this message on to those who don't read here, thanks.

That is all.


Andrew, I can't speak for the others you named here but as fas as I am concerned no apology is necessary. I wanted to get a few things straight, that's all, end of story.

I passed this apology on because you banned many to whom you direct your apology, including me, yet not everyone is as resourceful as I am. So I suppose the answer to where we go from here is that we go all our own seperate ways.
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Beitragvon FlyerPR » Sa Aug 27, 2005 8:32 am

AH compromised today on lifting ban. That is a move in the correct direction for saga world.
Zuletzt geändert von FlyerPR am Sa Aug 27, 2005 8:17 pm, insgesamt 1-mal geändert.
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Beitragvon Uschi » Sa Aug 27, 2005 1:50 pm

Jonathan, would you be so kind as to post here what's there to see at Andrew Horton's forum?
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Beitragvon FlyerPR » Sa Aug 27, 2005 6:04 pm

QUOTE-''''Sorry for overlooking this thread. In fact if those people wanted to come here and post I would be only to happy to lift their ban. I have no problem with Carlin, I appreciated her honest posting. If anyone wants to be unbanned, simply email me and you'll be back.

It's simple as that. ''' - END QUOTE/ AH
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Beitragvon Trudes Oude Voshaar » Sa Aug 27, 2005 7:25 pm

What a unbelievable arrogant way to talk, and then that line “My lie was for the benefits of the euros”.
As much as I want to support Michael not for a penny in the world will I go back there.
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